Curse

DrSLUGFly · Jul 16, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

disclaimer: I'm pretty tired so perhaps I've rambled a bit...

I love PvE... I can probably count on my fingers the amount of PvP games I've played. In all games it's the RP game that gets me. I think I've logged almost 300 hours now, finished everything except for a handful of bonuses and quests from the Desert onward with one character, ascended with a second and just went post-sear with my third. It's a great game. One of the best I've played.

But by its very nature it's limited. Until we can gain the technology to have real-time mutating MMORPGs all games are limited. This one, with the live (free) updates, has a serious advantage. But still, think replay value for a moment.

PvP - constant replay value, you're playing against real people. It's counter-strike for fantasy fans. If things get a little stale, Anet introduces a couple new maps.

PvE - decent replay value. I've played this game far more than any other game of similar style for a lot of reasons. Interactivity with other players, variations on characters (the ones you play). But the heart of a PvE player is in exploration and finding new worlds. It's not in the conflict and the victory. (to be sure, conflict and victory are exciting, but if it was about kills stacked up then I would likely lean towards PvP wouldn't I). In a couple months, maybe one even, Anet is introducing two new PvE zones. I'm pretty thrilled.

So think about how much work it takes to design and implement a new zone... and how long does that zone last vs. the thirst and persistence of a PvE explorer? Compare this with the work it would take to design and implement a new PvP map. How long will this map last a PvP player?

Anet can't keep up with PvE demands... it's simply not feasible. At keeping my attention for 300+ hours (and still going strong) they've achieved a very notable success, but eventually there will be nothing left for me to explore here... by then I'll get the expansion I know. But will they keep popping out expansions for me? For us? Will they continue giving us new zones every few months in live updates?

Where is the money coming from? I paid a handful of change for this game... perhaps enough to take a fraction of the dev team out for sidewalk-stall hamburgers. They can't satiate us indefinately... PvP on the other hand will maintain its excitement as long as there are opponents to overcome. Counter-strike is going on 5 years, starcraft 7 years. I'm quite sure that GW PvP will last a very long time, but PvE needs to be pulled on by updates and expansions. These will slow down over time as the dev team, by need if not choice, moves on to other projects. As time goes by the game will be more and more about PvP until Ascalon, Lion's Arch and all of Kryta are lonely and deserted...

drowningfish999 · Jul 16, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I think the natural course of a game is to it's competitive/multiplayer side. Since this game is already multiplayer, it will move on the the competitive portion. However, while the game is still having new content added for PvE, PvE will stay fairly large. As the game loses focus, perhaps when Arena.Net starts work on another, the PvP players will stay while the others move in, since there is no new content to play through. However, I think we still have a long time until Guild Wars becomes even close to pure PvP.

Nash · Jul 16, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Yes, PvE has no replay value.

Silmor · Jul 16, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I agree with drowningfish, it's natural progression. PvE content is basically static, so eventually you run out of things to do, things to try, and everything becomes the same. Once you've figured out how to clear something there's not too much challenge in doing it again, and there's little incentive to push you to improve on your methods.

PvP content refreshes itself continuously: every fight is different to some degree, and your opponents will adapt and improve forcing you to do the same. There's a clear point where you're the best, but you have to keep working to stay there.

So rushing through the PvE content is asking to get bored. If you don't care about PvP, taking it slow is a good approach - it'll easily tide you over to the next expansion.

Loviatar · Jul 16, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

[QUOTE=DrSLUGFly]disclaimer: I'm pretty tired so perhaps I've rambled a bit...

I love PvE...
QUOTE]

you are safe

the money comes from the additional chapters which will be heavy on the content side.

even if it runs at a loss for a year or so look at who is backing them NCSoft

the heavy lifting of creating the engine and all the content in the game has been done and they have a terriffic environment library to work from adding to it as needed

the effort they spent on the bones this time can be devoted to content this nect chapter

if you get tired of it put it aside till the next chapter or the urge strikes again

i have really gotten my moneys worth from GW and i am just warming up

Hell Marauder · Jul 16, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

It's possible to come up with a pve zone that's constantly changing: just utilitze the existing henchman system.
Imagine an area populated with randomly generated mixed groups of henchmen (or bandits) of various classes patroling about, not unlike the random pvp arena except it's larger like a whole province. I think it's technologically possible, since they already made elite skill boss random in a zone.

Tactical-Dillusions · Jul 16, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Long live GW (especially PvE). If or when PvE ends in the gutter, i will be very sad indeed.
PvP doesn't do it for me at the moment. Perhaps if we got actual drops from players (generated like the current loot table and not at the expense of the player who gets looted) maybe i would take up the challenge a bit more.
Maybe if a deathmatch/free for all types of game on large battle grounds were introduced too.

Anyway, as long as PvE is here...i am here.

PhineasToke · Jul 16, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

I guess the casual player who doesn't spend 12 hours a day playing or trying to rush through the game doesn't matter? Why do some people assume that other's lives begin and end every day playing games on their computer? Does anyone remember why D2 was so successful? Not because there was the chance to find a perfect String of Ears every time you played. But because when you DID find the time to play, that friendly interface was there and you picked right up where you left off from.

THAT is the eventual success of this game. We have Guild members who play once every week or so, not even every day. So when you think this game has become boring, you think in the minority. I have THREE accounts and 11 characters, and I don't think I'll get bored till they shut the servers down.

Loviatar · Jul 16, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhineasToke

THAT is the eventual success of this game. We have Guild members who play once every week or so, not even every day. So when you think this game has become boring, you think in the minority. I have THREE accounts and 11 characters, and I don't think I'll get bored till they shut the servers down.

SALUTE

i agree and only have 2 accounts (collectors and regular)

very first time i have gotten a collectors

Aniewiel · Jul 16, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

They will never drop PvE because I suspect that, though replayability at the moment is not very high, it is promised in the future. Both this August and in coming "chapters", PvE content is going to be very high.

And, let's also face the fact that PvP in this particular game is very low in terms of replayability. It isn't like Unreal Tournament that released the toolset to create new maps and places to play. THAT'S what keeps people interested in PvP.

I also believe them when they say that this is a hybrid game. I trust them to continue to believe and implement those facts.

Silmor · Jul 16, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Aniewel, the replayability in PvP is an ever-changing metagame, which is just the same in this game. If you look at popular FPS and RTS games, the same maps can remain popular there for years and years - there's no true need for mods or maps. What keeps it interesting? The growth potential for player skill, as opposed to avatar strength. Getting different opponents each time, resulting in a different match each time.

When talking about replayability in this game, PvE simply pales in comparisment to PvP.

Sagius Truthbarron · Jul 16, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Really, it has nothing to do with replayability. There will always be people doing the story becuase there will always be new people in these larger games. I have hardly ever seen a person in PvE who had done the whole story over even once.

No, it isn't destined to be pure PvP becuase alot of the players don't like PvP. PvPers are seen as the majority here becuase there are alot of Beta Testers on the forums; people who joined for the PvP.

There is no depth to PvP unless you have a PvP guild. You can't get a guild without PvE. You can't get upgrades, runes and spells without PvE. You can't play on your own in PvP. You can play on your own in PvE.

Guild Wars will actract more graphics loving players than games like World of Warcraft and Everquest 2 since those games. Guild Wars has a better questing system than those games. Guild Wars isn't as boring as those games in the sence that you don't have to beat up the same series of monsters over and over again for two weeks.

Guild Wars, though it doesn't offer alot of number crunching and grinding - unless you want to unlock every rune, ungrade and skill through PvE - it does offer alot of depth and stupidity free game time.

Divinitys Creature · Jul 17, 2005, 12:17 AM // 00:17

I hope this summers PvE zones contain enough challenge to keep PvEers busy. At least as long as the next chapter.

I hope GW lasts a long time too.

Tkonian · Jul 17, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Not by design, Expansion Packs are to be launched every 6-9 months. The expansions are to be roughly the same in size as the original game.

But seeing how many people have finished the game and moved to PvP play already, it may end up that way by consequence. Having PvP interupted every time PvE updates (assuming they continue to update it if it turns mostly PvP).

Ultimate_Gaara · Jul 17, 2005, 03:15 AM // 03:15

i think all they need to do is come up with more random quests, i wet myself everytime they do

Spike · Jul 17, 2005, 03:35 AM // 03:35

If GW EVER become pure pvp it would die in days. PVE is where the money and 95% of the people are. PVP is DULL and BOREING. My 3rd character is at iron mines and i'm still finding new things to do and places to go and things to see. Total playing time all most 500 hours now on my 3 characters. Can't wait for the 2 new areas.

SOT · Jul 17, 2005, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

So think about how much work it takes to design and implement a new zone... and how long does that zone last vs. the thirst and persistence of a PvE explorer? Compare this with the work it would take to design and implement a new PvP map. How long will this map last a PvP player?

I have fun in both aspects, but for the PVP side, I do not really pay attention to how a map "looks". I just play my part, and slaughter people

Aniewiel · Jul 17, 2005, 03:47 AM // 03:47

I think that Sagius hit it on the head: Though PvP may be the big point at the moment, there is no real depth to it. There will always be newer and better PvP shooters to attract players.

I am not saying that PvE is the only way for GW to go. Far from it in fact. I -do- believe the package when it says that the developers are striving for a game that can happily occupy BOTH PvE and PvP.

I also think that whoever said that the majority of posters on GW forums are PvPers is correct. We poor simpleton PvEers tend to be a much quieter bunch.

Divinitys Creature · Jul 17, 2005, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

I think that Sagius hit it on the head: Though PvP may be the big point at the moment, there is no real depth to it. There will always be newer and better PvP shooters to attract players.

I am not saying that PvE is the only way for GW to go. Far from it in fact. I -do- believe the package when it says that the developers are striving for a game that can happily occupy BOTH PvE and PvP.

I also think that whoever said that the majority of posters on GW forums are PvPers is correct. We poor simpleton PvEers tend to be a much quieter bunch.

I doubt that. PvPers were often dubbed a minority when we were asking for a PvP rewards system well at least on TGH. Also I see a bajillion threads about the economy, how rune traders messed things up, how you want more content and when there was campaigning for a sigil trader. I'm just trying to point out that there seems to be very many PvEers here AFAICT. I know some of those issues affect all players to some extent.

Kishin · Jul 17, 2005, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

I think that Sagius hit it on the head: Though PvP may be the big point at the moment, there is no real depth to it. There will always be newer and better PvP shooters to attract players.

I am not saying that PvE is the only way for GW to go. Far from it in fact. I -do- believe the package when it says that the developers are striving for a game that can happily occupy BOTH PvE and PvP.

I also think that whoever said that the majority of posters on GW forums are PvPers is correct. We poor simpleton PvEers tend to be a much quieter bunch.

You also tend to be the first to cast stones in the form of insults, contrary to the popular belief that its PvP players who are the ones tearing into everyone and everything.

As it stands now, I think there isn't really a balance between PvE and PvP, as the PvE is fairly short and contains limited replayability, whereas PvP is based on an evolving metagame (as was mentioned earlier), variance (and competence) of opponents and build scenarios. If ArenaNet's goal is a game that balances PvE and PvP, well, since I'm a fan of their work, I hope they reach it. The skill system, at least, was certainly designed with a PvP framework in mind, as you would in no way feel obligated to bother with the incredible level of balancing that they went through. Of course, there's also the argument that they should have picked one focus and ran with it, and since the game was pitched as PvP-focused game, perhaps it should have been almost entirely that, since the PvE content is presently somewhat lacking. Then again, that's no my decision. I'm not ANet's Marketing director.

Inevitably though, we're going to have this debate forever. There's always going to be people who want Guild Wars to be Everquest without a monthly fee, and they are always going to be criticizing and name calling the PvP crowd, just as there's always going to be a population that wants a pure PvP experience and as a result become irritated with PvE and the so called 'carebear' mindset, and thereby lash out in retaliation.

Its six of one, half a dozen of the other no matter how you swing it.